This is a rush transcript of "Fox News Sunday" on March 12, 2023. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
SHANNON BREAM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I'm Shannon Bream.
President Biden lays down a brand new marker in his battle with Republicans over spending and debt.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BREAM (voice-over): The president says it's time to tax the rich, to rein in the deficit and even the playing field.
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No billionaire should be paying lower tax than somebody working as a school teacher.
BREAM: But Republicans say it's time to slash spending and call Biden's budget more of the same.
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): Massive tax increases, more spending.
BREAM: Now, he's pressing Speaker Kevin McCarthy to lay out his plan.
BIDEN: I'm ready to meet with the speaker any time, tomorrow, if he has his budget.
BREAM: We'll sit down with Senator John Kennedy, a Republican member of the Budget Committee, on what exactly his party wants to cut. It's a "FOX News Sunday" exclusive.
Then --
GOV. RON DESANTIS (R), FLORIDA: I bring greetings from the free state of Florida.
NIKKI HALEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: First, I've got to tell you, y'all growing strong here in Iowa.
BREAM: It feels like the unofficial kickoff to the Iowa caucuses -- 2024 candidates and potential candidates are swarming the states. That as prosecutors signal possible criminal charges for the front-runner. We'll ask our Sunday panel about the 2024 state of play.
And "FOX News Sunday" sits down with the president of Finland on Russia's war on Ukraine.
Hew would you describe your relationship with Mr. Putin?
And we discussed his country's high stakes campaign to join NATO despite Turkey's opposition. President Sauli Niinisto, only on "FOX News Sunday."
Plus --
BENJAMIN HALL, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: I thought I'm going home no matter what. I'm going to see my wife and children.
BREAM: My conversation with FOX correspondent Ben Hall about the daring rescue after his team was hit by Russian fire in Ukraine and how he's honoring the journalists lost in that attack.
All, right now, on "FOX News Sunday".
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BREAM (on camera): Hello from FOX News in Washington.
President Biden is out with a huge spending plan saying he'll tax the rich to pay for it. Republicans say tax hikes are out of the question. But they haven't released their own plans just yet.
This year's budget fight carries high stakes because right now, Washington is also facing a deadline to approve a new borrowing limit over will risk huge economic consequences.
Joining us now to discuss it all, Louisiana Senator John Kennedy, member of the Senate Budget Committee, who is known for his colorful commentary on this issue and many others.
Senator, welcome back to "FOX News Sunday".
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): Thank you.
BREAM: All right. Let's start here.
The president makes his pitch this week for the budget and says this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My plan is going to reduce the deficit by $3 trillion over 10 years. Based on what we know so far about their plans, it's going to explode the deficit by more than $3 trillion over the next 10 years. They want to cut taxes for the wealthy and large corporations, take away the power we just gave Medicare to negotiate lower drug prices.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: All right. Senator, he says he's going to reduce the deficit, shore up Medicaid and Social Security, and make the rich pay their fair share.
So, what is the GOP counter?
KENNEDY: The president's budget took my breath away. His numbers are extraordinary. We're going to run out of digits here. It's $6.9 trillion budget, $4.7 trillion in new taxes that will affect everyone over 10 years; $18 trillion in new debt, a cut to defense.
The president says that his budget will solve our financial problems in Medicare and Social Security, that's not true. Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're talking about.
"The Wall Street Journal" just reported that the president's budget will add eight -- rather $11 trillion in a financial shortfall to Social Security and Medicare. The only way I know how to improve the president's budget is with a shredder.
BREAM: Well, we're waiting to see what Republicans, though, want to offer in return, other than just criticism.
Here's what "The New York Times" says, how they characterize what they say is coming. They say: Hard right House Republicans are writing a plan to gut the nation's foreign aid budget and make deep cuts to healthcare, food assistance and housing programs for poor Americans.
So, again, we've got to get to what the GOP counter is, and how do you also deal with the optics of knowing how the Republican plans are going to be portrayed by most folks in the media?
KENNEDY: Well, I'm going to try to do what's right for the American people. The media can do what it wants.
The House is on its track to put together a budget, Shannon. The Senate needs to be doing its work on the budget. Senator Schumer has prevented that. I'm on the Appropriations Committee. We should be meeting right now.
As you know, we split the budget up into 12 mini budgets. I'm ranking member on one of those sub-committees. We should be meeting right now talking about how to reduce the rate of growth of spending and debt accumulation, but Senator Schumer will not allow us to meet.
So, when you can't sit down with your colleagues, it's not hard to put together something to talk to the American people about, because no question that there are savings to be had in this budget. No fair-minded American believes that you can't find efficiencies in a $6.9 trillion budget.
BREAM: So you mention spending and that is something we are hearing from House Republicans, Speaker McCarthy out there saying there's -- you know, we're bringing all time highs of revenues, but we have to talk about cuts and spending.
But a CBO analysis says this: Republicans don't exactly have clean hands on that issue. Republicans bear at least equal blame as Democrats for the biggest drivers of federal debt growth that passed Congress over the last two presidential administrations.
So, how do you convince your party to stop spending in the same way that Republicans criticize Democrats for doing?
KENNEDY: Well, that criticism that you just read is correct. There have been any number of bills passed with Republican support in the Senate that added to spending. I didn't vote for them.
I'll give one example. We just passed a $40 billion subsidy for big tech. It's called the CHIPS bill. The idea is to bring semiconductor manufacturing back to America. Right now, we have a 10 percent market share.
We just spent $40 billion on -- in a giveaway to big tech. You know how much it's going to increase our market share? One percent.
Our infrastructure bill, which is not really infrastructure bill -- I didn't vote for it because I'm not going to buy a car to get the cup holders.
If you want to talk savings, we ought to stop sending checks to dead people. We spend about a billion to two billion every year to send money to dead people, the checks are being cashed. It's obviously a fraud.
The president's plan to have the American people pay for student debt cost $400 billion over 10 years. We already had a plan to repay student debt. It's called a job. We ought to get rid of that.
We ought to talk about how to reduce the federal workforce through attrition. We ought to talk about why in the Medicare program, we're paying more for the same surgical treatment in a hospital as opposed to an outpatient clinic.
There are lots of things we can do to reduce spending in this budget. But on the Senate side, we have to have Senator Schumer's permission to do that and he's not going to give it, nor is President Biden.
BREAM: Well, the White House does say they are folding, I guess, $1.6 billion, that will be aimed at fraud and going after things that you mentioned. And, of course, we're waiting to see what the Supreme Court says about the executive decision on forgiving student loans. So, we'll stand by on those.
Meantime, entitlements are getting a lot of attention. Republicans have repeatedly said they're not going to cut them. The White House has repeatedly said you need to be afraid if you're -- if you're getting these benefits.
Here is what GOP presidential candidate Nikki Haley said this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIKKI HALEY (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have to be realistic. It is unrealistic to say you're not going to touch entitlements.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: Okay. They say Democrats are actually making proposals about these entitlements. But they say this: If Republicans continue to stubbornly insist that Social Security and Medicare shouldn't be touched, the inevitable result will be not only the Democrats win the political debate, but that all such reforms will mostly mean higher taxes.
So, listen, trustees of these programs tell us, 10 to 15 years, they'll be insolvent. Nikki Haley is out there saying you've got to talk about it, but Republicans are, you know, chastised every time you do.
Should you be having a public conversation about those things?
KENNEDY: Well, I think you ought to get the Social Security that you pay for, and I think you ought to get the Medicare that you pay for.
Now, Medicare is going to start getting in trouble financially in 2028. Social Security in 2035, I think. We should be talking now how to make sure that those programs are solvent.
The problem is that President Biden in his State of the Union Address decided to demagogue the issue. We all saw it. He basically said, if you talk, talk -- speaking to Republicans, if you talk about Social Security or Medicare, I'm going to call you a mean, bad person. And that just took the issue off the table when the president decided to demagogue it.
It was -- you -- you can -- you can only be young once, but you can always be immature, and I thought it was a very immature thing to do.
BREAM: So, you think there need to be conversations that about something, whether it's changing the age for people who are not yet paying into these benefits, future changes, current changes?
KENNEDY: Well, of course, we ought to talk about it. I mean, the life expectancy of the average American right now is about 77 years old. For people who are in their 20s, their life expectancy will probably be 85 to 90.
Does it really make sense to allow someone who's in their 20s today to retire at 62? Those are kind of things that we should talk about.
There are changes in Medicare we should talk about. Let me say it again, Medicare pays much more for the same surgical procedure in a hospital as it does in a private outpatient clinic. Why?
There are a lot of things we could talk about, but President Biden has taken that issue totally off the table. He says he has fixed it in his budget and that's nonsense. That's nonsense on a stick.
BREAM: It looks like that's going to be done through increased taxes, which you know Republicans are thumbs down on that.
I want to ask you about the border --
KENNEDY: But it still leaves a shortfall. It still leaves $11 trillion shortfall. So, when the president says, "I fixed the problem", with all due respect, he's not telling the truth.
BREAM: Yeah, there is a definitely a debt component to what he's proposing out there. That's pretty hefty.
I want to ask you about the border because there's talk of taking cartels, designating them as foreign terrorist organizations. There's also talk about whether or not you get the U.S. military involved.
Former AG Bill Barr has got a very interesting piece in "The Wall Street Journal" where he talks about: If our country is under threat, we should have operations, including within Mexico.
Where do you stand on that?
KENNEDY: I think -- I think Attorney General Barr is correct. Look, the cartels, we know who they are. They're killing Americans on both sides of the border.
And the fact is that the American military could partner with the Mexican military and the Mexican police and we could wipe out the cartels. But President Lopez Obrador in Mexico refuses to do that. And when Senator Graham and I talked about the issue this year -- this week, rather, President Biden said it was a bad idea.
And the truth is that President Biden believes in open borders, the cartels don't seem to bother him and President Lopez Obrador, he can answer for himself, but I don't understand why he would turn down American help to get rid of cartels that are killing his people and our people.
BREAM: Okay. Just very quickly, to be clear, if the U.S. wasn't in any partnership of some kind with Mexico, its military, its law enforcement -- does U.S. military have any role within Mexico, short of that cooperation?
KENNEDY: No, we can't -- no, we can't go into Mexico without -- without Mexico's permission.
BREAM: Okay, just want to be clear.
All right. Senator Kennedy, great to see you. Thank you so much.
KENNEDY: Thank you, Shannon.
BREAM: This week, we learned that the Manhattan DA has offered former President Trump the opportunity to testify before a grand jury. It's part of an investigation into payments made to an adult porn star during the 2016 campaign. We will ask our Sunday panel what to make of the theory that it could actually help President Trump politically. That's up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TYLER VARGAS-ANDREWS, U.S. MARINE CORPS SERGEANT: In a flash and a massive wave of pressure, I'm thrown 12 feet on the ground, but instantly knew what had happened. I opened my eyes to marines dead or unconscious lying around me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: Heartbreaking testimony this week from Marine Corps Sergeant Tyler Vargas Andrews and a hearing about the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan.
Let's bring in our Sunday group to discuss, host of the "Sidelines Sanity" podcast, Michele Tafoya, former State Department spokesperson and FOX News contributor Marie Harf, president of the Heritage Foundation, Kevin Roberts, and "Reuters" White House correspondent Jeff Mason.
All right. You guys got extra credit for coming in on time change Sunday. We love having you guys here.
Okay. There are a lot of hearings this week. I want to go back to this Afghanistan hearing. Tyler Vargas-Andrews, 44 surgeries, lost a leg and an arm and a kidney. He talked about how he was set up to patrol and watch this airport area and he had a warning and was asking for the ability to engage with this person they believed to be the suicide bomber. He said, plain and simple, we were ignored.
And, Jeff, there are a lot of people who still have questions about what we can figure out with what happened with Afghanistan.
JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS: For sure, and I think getting answers to those questions is going to be really critical. As a reporter listening to that testimony makes me to want to ask, you know, who mad that order, who were the people in his command who made that order?
I think on a more macro level, the fact that these hearings are happening politically means it's going to get some more focus and it's going to be a vulnerability for President Biden. I don't think there's anything that the came out of that hearing that would suggest President Biden was giving orders like that, that's much, much lower down on the food chain, but the broader piece, the broader theme of the exit from Afghanistan is something that has to some extent not gotten a lot of attention over the last year or so.
And because of Republicans are in charge of the House right now, that's one of the things that they are increasing oversight on and that's going to have an impact.
BREAM: Yeah, another thing their thing their increasing oversight on is the Twitter files. And there was a hearing this week about really pressing people about the sourcing on this.
"The Hill' puts it this way. Professor Jonathan Turley writing for them: He says: As evidenced mounts of an even broader censorship effort by the Biden administration, the Democrats attacks have become more unhinged and unscrupulous. After shredding any fealty to free speech, they are now attacking journalists, demanding their sources and claiming their reporting is a public threat.
Michelle?
MICHELE TAFOYA, FORMER SPORTSCASTER: Well, and they called them so-called journalists, which I thought was such a slap in the face to both of them, Shellenberger and Taibbi. By the way, that term "so-called" permeated another hearing as well. Cori Bush of Missouri in the House Subcommittee Oversight -- Oversight Committee on Energy, called one of their experts a so-called philosopher and white supremacist.
So, this term of so-called seems to be -- well, they are making these so- called hearings. I'm just not sure that this is -- the proper way. But I was really offended as a journalist, the experience -- the amount of experience between these two gentlemen and being questioned and trying to force their hand in terms of saying that Elon Musk was their only source was -- I love the way that Jonathan Turley put it.
He said it sounded like a divorce hearing. And you slept with her and now you didn't tell me this. And it was just awful. There was no discretion, there was no respect. They didn't know who Bari Weiss was in that panel.
And to me, that's like, where's Katie Couric when you need her to say, I'm sorry, who do you read? What do you read? To not know a lot of these players was I thought shameful.
BREAM: Well, and, Marie, you know, Professor Turley talked about this in the context of Democrats and liberals in the traditional sense have always been about free speech and about exposing government corruption. So, why so hard on these folks? At least the optics of it didn't appear good for them in that Twitter hearing.
MARIE HARF, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think a lot of Democrats would say that Elon Musk is not committed to free speech. He is banning people from Twitter, taking them off Twitter when they criticize him personally. And so, Democrats will say, this isn't actually about free speech. If it was, they would put out all of the Twitter files for every journalist to look at and not cherry-pick which ones they give to their journalists they are working on this.
But the broader context, Shannon, is that this Weaponization Committee, these House Republicans-led hearings on these issues are sort of red meat for the base. They are doing a lot of what they promised to investigate when they took over Congress.
What I suspect though is a lot of American voters actually want them to be focusing on other issues that impact their daily lives every day. I'm not sure this is a winning message, and even privately, some Republicans will say, they have been saying it to reporters, that this Weaponization Committee, all these issues, they don't have any substance.
They're not really doing what Jim Jordan and others promised, and they are really a distraction. Republicans are saying that. Democrats don't have to say it. Republicans are doing it for them.
BREAM: Kevin, can they do both? Can they do substantive and what they would argue are also substantive but these are my theatrical hearings?
KEVIN ROBERTS, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION PRESIDENT: I would push back respectfully on the word theatrical. I think they're very substantive. And the reason is if you spend some time outside the beltway with everyday American conservatives, they don't think that this is theater. They think this is real. Because there's -- if you are a Republican member of Congress, Shannon, there's a 90 to 1 ratio that you are going to be censored in your own political campaign emails, versus if you are a liberal.
So, for the everyday American, they believe that this collusion between big tech and big government is something that needs to stop. Obviously, that can't be' the only thing that the Republican majority is focused on, but I can assure you that we at heritage on attuned to every day conservatives are really proud of how this has started. And if anything, the pace needs to pick up.
BREAM: Well, the pace may be picking up in New York with the attorney general there. The district attorney inviting former President Trump to come and talk about what they are they are investigating, these payments that were made to Stormy Daniels back in 2016.
Here's what the president said at CPAC, former president, a few days ago when he was asked whether he would drop out if indicted. He said, I won't even think about leaving, probably, it will enhance my numbers.
Kevin, we'll start with you.
ROBERTS: 2024 is fascinating to me. And obviously, there's a lot of coverage as there should be on the candidates. But as a movement conservative, I think it's a tremendous opportunity for the conservative movement and ultimately the American people to have a reckoning about a lot of issues that remain outstanding. What is going to be the relationship between the state and the individual? What is going to be a more restrained foreign policy for the United States?
This is ultimately where it will boil down, Shannon, it is whatever is most conservative who is not only willing to fight, but is willing to articulate a positive, aspirational vision for the future is going to be the nominee - - whoever he or she is.
BREAM: Marie, you look like you want to jump in on that.
HARF: Well, I just think it's fascinating that that is not -- you know, that reckoning comes from a primary and a contested primary, with a lot of voices in, a lot of different ideas, not just Donald Trump steamrolling through this primary process.
And so, privately, a lot of Republicans will tell you that they are tired of Trump, they are ready for a change. The question is, do they have a plan to get another candidate who may be is more of a conservative, may be is more in touch with what the Republican Party needs to be going forward.
You know, we always say hope isn't the strategy. A lot of Republicans have a lot of hope right now that there's a post-Trump future, not a plan to get there yet.
BREAM: Listen he continues to dominate the polling in Iowa and beyond that he's still a front runner. There are a lot of folks that aren't in yet, some of them we think show up in the polling, but "The Des Moines Register" had some new numbers out this week and they say this. The percentage of Iowa Republicans who say they will definitely vote for him, meaning President Trump, if he were the nominee in 2024 has plummeted more than 20 percentage points since June of 2021.
So, Michele, still in the lead, but you can see some attrition in his numbers.
TAFOYA: You see attrition, and by the way, Ron DeSantis hasn't declared yet. And in that same poll, he compared very favorable -- in favorability numbers. Where DeSantis has an opening is that there are percent 20 percent of those people who haven't made up their mind, whereas they made up their mind one way or another about Trump. I think 18 percent of the people in that poll in Iowa found him unfavorable.
I don't think this primary is helped by a bunch of people coming into take on Trump. And that's what I'm hearing from my people in Iowa that I spoke to over the last week. They have said that if there are a lot of people, that favors Trump.
And right now, everyone has taken their time. They said it's really slow here in Iowa. Normally, we have a bunch of candidates coming through and we haven't seen it yet, but it's because of that Cyclops eye of Trump that they don's want to quite get in the crosshairs until they know how this is going to shake out and made the best one or two people wind up running against him in the primary.
BREAM: Yeah. And we've all done a lot of time out in Iowa. I love it, because people there are so engaged. They're so into this. But they expect you to show up at their town halls, at their diners, in their living rooms, like they want to meet three or four times and shake your hand and questioned you before they ever vote for you.
President Trump heads back their tomorrow. How important do you think this is for him, Joe?
MASON: I think it's big. I think he's got a lot of baggage, and he's got a lot of things that he has to get over and he asked to find whether or not the people in Iowa or around the country are going to either overlook that again.
I think he is not wrong when he says that the things that many perhaps normal politicians or people would think that's going to really hurt him, they usually don't for President Trump, and, in fact, they often do help him. So, he's not wrong.
And yet, there are other candidates and you do have people like his former vice president now really coming out and saying things that are much more critical of him. We'll see if that ends up having an impact.
TAFOYA: There is fatigue.
BREAM: Yeah, and you are at an event last night, I know you were -- former Vice President Pence said he actually felt like the former president had endangered his family. I mean, he reticulated that.
So, we'll see. He hasn't announced yet either. We'll see if he does.
Panel, thank you very much.
Right now, Finland and Sweden are actively campaigning to join NATO but there are some countries are not yet convinced. I sat down this week with the president of Finland to discuss the game-changing moment he says led to his NATO push. And I asked about Finland's complex relationship with Russia. That interview is next.
A little bit later, my interview with FOX News' Benjamin Hall who survived a terrifying attack while covering the war in Ukraine. He is sharing his truly miraculous story of survival and recovery. We'll be right back.
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BREAM: Russia is hitting Ukraine's energy infrastructure harder than it has in months. The goal, to keep trying to wear down Ukrainian civils. The strikes have put new pressure on Ukrainian leaders to shore up support from the U.S. and Europe.
In a moment, my interview with the president of Finland on his plans to keep Ukraine armed and his warning as China grows closer to Russia.
But first, let's go live to Steve Harrigan in Kyiv, who is tracking conditions on the ground.
Hello, Steve.
STEVE HARRIGAN, FOX NEWS CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Shannon, the Russian invasion has had effects far beyond the war zone.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIGAN (voice over): One day been Finish Prime Minister Marin met Ukraine President Zelenskyy, Russia launched 81 missiles into Ukraine, knocking out heat and electricity for hundreds of thousands.
On the ground, seven months of artillery shelling has turned Bakhmut into a killing zone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Bakhmut is important for us. If it wasn't important, we wouldn't be fighting for it. This is our land.
HARRIGAN: Fearing they could be next, Finland and Sweden applied to join NATO. NATO's goal is to admit both countries before the next summit in Lithuania in July.
JENS STOLTENBERG, SECRETARY GENERAL, NATO: President Putin's war against Ukraine grinds on. He is not preparing for peace, he's preparing for more war.
HARRIGAN: So far, only Turkey and Hungary have yet to approve. The most serious objection is Turkey's claim that Sweden allows Kurdish groups it calls terrorists to operate inside Sweden. In case of a delay with Sweden, Finland may prepare to enter the alliance alone, giving up a neutrality it has held since 1948.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIGAN: The Russian invasion has changed a lot of minds in Europe about neutrality.
Shannon, back to you.
BREAM: I'm sure it has.
Steve Harrigan, thank you very much, reporting live from Kyiv.
Here now my conversation with the president of Finland just hours after he met with President Biden at the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BREAM: Mr. President, thank you for your time.
I know you've been very busy on this trip, including a visit to the White House. I know you saw President Biden. Did you all discuss your entry or attempted entry into NATO and what capital he may be willing to politically be able to expend on helping you get there?
SAULI NIINISTO, PRESIDENT OF FINLAND: Well, surely we discussed about the current situation at our NATO application, but (INAUDIBLE) start interesting is the global situation. We are living very problematic times at the moment. So, I found is very, very important and good to have a possibility of discussing with him.
BREAM: And I know there's been an additional meeting with Turkey, Sweden and Finland, brokered by NATO, about moving forward. It sounds like Turkey's not quite there yet. But there's been some progress?
NIINISTO: There has been some progress, yes. Actually the meeting in Brussels, which took place today, is - has ended now and let's see the next moves. But I just want to tell you that I'm very optimistic.
BREAM: OK, so Turkey has said this. They claim that both you and Sweden are harboring militants from the banned Kurdistan worker's party, a designated terror group, and they say that's part of their delay. Do you feel like that's really what this is about or is it something else?
NIINISTO: Well, European Union has declared PKK as a terrorist organization, and that is how we deal with that. And I guess Sweden, too. So, in our thinking, we have met all what has been agreed with Turkey last summer in Madrid. They have a different opinion. So, let's continue discussions.
BREAM: There's also discussion involving Hungary. It seems to be signaling that it favors allowing Sweden to proceed, maybe not Finland, but I know there are ongoing conversations there too. Any sense of how Hungary is proceeding with respect to your application.
NIINISTO: I have just once (ph) discussed with - about that with Prime Minister Orban. And it was clear his message a little off and say we will not be the last one. So, let's take it as - as it is. They sent a parliamentary delegation both to Sweden and Finland. And during those discussions, I think it became very clear that in itself they have nothing against Finish, Swedish membership, but they just want to remind that they haven't been very happy with the discussion which has been ongoing both in Sweden and Finland, well, dealing with Hungary and maybe more domestic policy.
BREAM: Are you confident that both Turkey and Hungary will eventually come around to supporting your application?
NIINISTO: Like I said, I'm very optimistic and in will news (ph) we will have full voice amongst our partners.
BREAM: Is it ironic to you that Vladimir Putin, one of his justification for going into Ukraine was, he didn't want the expansion of NATO. And now there may be two new members to that body.
NIINISTO: Yes. I think that President Putin has had -- still has some kind of obsession dealing with Ukraine. We've got -- have heard it during the years in his speeches. And, well, that is what he can't get rid of. And that's, I think, a big mistake.
What comes to Finland and Sweden, yes, when Putin said that he would demand NATO not to enlarge any more, actually that was kind of a game changer in our minds because so far we had always considered, and others too, that from our own will we are militarily unaligned (ph). But after Putin's speech, I - and prayed that quite a many of us would have said that, yes, they forbid you to join. So, it was a game-changer in Finland.
BREAM: And how would it change that region for you to become a member of NATO at this point?
NIINISTO: We had to keep in mind that we are, and have been for 10 years, an enhanced NATO partner. That has meant that we are - we are always with NATO military exercises and that we have very good (INAUDIBLE) ability with NATO. So, they used to say, or so in Russia, that Finland is -- and Sweden actually more a NATO member than many existing members. So, you, of course, know that big turn (ph).
BREAM: So, you share, obviously, a lengthy border and a lot of history with Russia. You said recently this. You said, we're not afraid, but we are well awake.
NIINISTO: Yes.
BREAM: So, how would you describe your relationship with Mr. Putin, with Russia broadly?
NIINISTO: It goes back centuries. We know then Russians have tried to come to Finland. And we have learned that. So, in spite of the fact that we had quite good relations with Russia, with the common border line, controlling that, everything like that. So, it is part of that. Surely we got prepared all the time. And I would say that the Finish military forces are proportionately, at least, one, if not the strongest in Europe. Just an example, if we call our -- we still have conscription. And if we call our trained reserves, we have approximately 300,000 women and men in arms, which is more than 14,15 times bigger Germany has. So, we have always taken it very seriously.
BREAM: What about -- you sent a lot of aid into Ukraine. There's been talk of you sending tanks, other armaments, or materials. How do you assess what you're able to send into that conflict?
NIINISTO: So far we have sent armament with over approximately 700 million euros. If you count it per capita, it's more than you here in USA, more than U.K., more than Germany. So, we are strongly involved.
We haven't told so much exactly what kind of armament we are delivering because, well, our - our military people think that it's best not to tell what we have and what we possibly do not have anymore after giving it. But it's quite heavy armament.
BREAM: What do you make of China in its role? And we have ongoing conversations here in the U.S. about whether they are going to provide lethal aid to Russia.
NIINISTO: Yes. Yes.
BREAM: If they do, what should be the response? And -- and what do you make of their role?
NIINISTO: Let's take rather the situation as it is now. And surely if Russia and China get closer and closer each other, that is a problem.
I have said many times that China should understand that if European people and people here get an impression that they are supporting Russia, that would ruin their reputation. And it's maybe good to remind that in free world, what people think they have really a say. And if they have a say, and they say that reflects or so to the policies of politics. In the same time, China wants to trade with Europe, trade with USA. What about if they first spoil their reputation. Not much trading left. So, this is undoubtedly what Chinese have to count.
BREAM: We'll watch closely and as well your application to NATO.
Mr. President, thank you for your time today.
NIINISTO: Thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BREAM: Up next, the remarkable recovery of our Fox News colleague seriously wounded in Ukraine one year ago. Ben Hall sat down with me this week to talk about how he made it out and what drove him to hang on in the very darkest moments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN HALL, FOX NEWS STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: I don't remember the horror that happened to me. I don't remember the evil. I see all the good. I see the incredible people who came together to get me, to build me back together, to help me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BREAM: Many of you know Fox News State Department correspondent Benjamin Hall was gravely injured covering the war in Ukraine last year. And now he is sharing his story. He's a veteran war reporter who's covered countries like Syria and Afghanistan from the frontline. When Russia invaded Ukraine, he was ready to go. But just weeks in, Hall was severely hurt when he and his team were hit by a Russian strike. Two fellow Fox team members were killed, 24-year-old Sasha Kuvshynova, veteran cameraman Pierre Zakrzewski.
I sat down with -- this week with Benjamin to talk about his miraculous rescue and also his recovery.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BREAM: Ben, it is so great to see you in person. And I know that our viewers are anxious to hear how you are and your story, and this brand-new book you have, "Saved." I don't read it without Kleenex. There are so many ups and downs and beautiful things and miracles through this book.
But you start by telling us kind of what motivated you about why you always wanted to go to the frontlines and you thought these stories were important to tell.
BENJAMIN HALL, FOX NEWS STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think that even after everything that's happened to me, I think that the role we do and the job we did is essential. And I would continue encouraging other people to go out and - and tell the same stories.
Because ISIS would have been living down in these tunnels.
Myself, I started off covering conflicts because I was fascinated by the world. I wanted to see the extremes of human experience. And I wanted to see the life and death up close and to understand the world in a better way. And as you start to cover more conflicts, it becomes something deeper. You see the stories and the real tragedies in front of you. And I think the more you see those, the more you want to share those stories.
And, of course, we've seen involvement around the world from U.S. troops, you know, for the last 20 years. And so I wanted to understand how geopolitics played a role in domestic politics as well.
So, for me, it was a job I absolutely loved doing and which I felt was also very serious. And so I was very lucky to have it.
BREAM: And you're aware of the risks. I mean you talk about that. And there's so many fascinating stories that ready like a spy novel, of sneaking into countries and on a boat and all kinds of near brushes with death. This was not the first time that you had been in real danger when March 14th happened in Ukraine.
HALL: Yes. I mean I spent many years, before I was at Fox, as a freelancer. And the fact of any journalist in this, if you want to get the right story, the best story, you have to be at the front. You have to be speaking to the people right in the middle of that story. And in a war zone, the only way to get there is to get on small boats, you know, illegally cross borders, you know, wade through rivers, sleep in caves. And that's what we did for a number of years. And I think it - it's the only way to tell these stories.
BREAM: And you - at the heart of the book is, obviously, explaining exactly what happened March 14th when we lost Pierre and Sasha. And you were literally in a life or death struggle for a long time after that. And our colleague, Jen Griffin, immediately jumped into action. And with her depth of knowledge and her experience, she coordinates with Save Our Allies. There's a guy named Seaspray (ph) in the book, who is this heroic character.
There were so many incredible hurdles and things that had to happen exactly right. Doctors, volunteers, people to get you to safety. I know you were just surviving it at the time, but, looking back, does it feel like one miracle after another?
HALL: It was. They were miracles as well. And, at the time, I was thinking, stay alive, fight however you have to, just get through this and try and get home. And then I later learned of what was going on behind the scenes. Jen Griffin, Save Our Allies, these people began to work immediately, within seconds. And there were times where, if some decisions hadn't been made within minutes, I wouldn't have got on the right train, I wouldn't have been found in the hospital, I wouldn't have survived.
And so looking into that, learning about that, was one of the other reasons I wanted to write the book because I was amazed at all these heroes who came in for me, risked their own lives to come in and save me. And for many of them, these were, you know, former military. They said, there's an American stuck in Ukraine. We will do whatever it takes to go in, get him home, get him back to his family. And that's what they did. And they didn't really want recognition.
BREAM: Right.
HALL: They want to do that because they believe in doing the right thing. That's what they did for me. And they should get recognition. Everyone should reach out and support them. And Save Our Allies is a group that continues to work well today saving people around the world.
BREAM: There are so many heroes through every page of this book. But I found it fascinating that it was almost a full circle situation for you because of your father's story about being rescued by American GI's.
HALL: Yes, it's amazing. About 77 years ago, at the end of the Second World War, my father was 12 years old. He was in the Philippines, in Manila. For four years he had lived under Japanese occupation in the bombed out streets of Manila. Most of his family had been killed by the Japanese. And when the U.S. Army, led by General McArthur, came back in, he was told, if you want to survive, you have to find the American lines. And they - these little kids fought their way through the streets to get there and finally saw the American lines, the Buckeye Division. It was the Ohio National Guard at the end. And they finally managed to get there. One kid shot alongside him as it happened. And he was lifted into the arms of an American GI. And he was saved. And he came to America himself. He served in Korea, in the U.S. Army.
And here I am, all these years later, across the world, being saved by American heroes, and the U.S. military was there for me too. When I crossed into Poland, there was a Black Hawk waiting. The 82nd Airborne was there. And that moment where I was lifted up into the sky, it was again - I come from a family who has been rescued again and again by Americans abroad. And I was so proud and honored to be a part of it.
BREAM: I mean one of the most beautiful things in the book too, you actually have images that go along with so many of these stories, including that rescue of your father all those years ago, and then your rescue and this amazing story about, you know, we talked about -- we know how the story ends and that you got out safely, but you are on the edge of your seat reading this account of exactly how you got through each checkpoint, each impossible hurdle, everything that happened. And I know at one point you want your cell phone, you want to try to call your wife. At the - at the center of this book is very much a beautiful love story, too. And she's one of your heroes, as well.
HALL: She is. I mean, you know, I get - I get emotional really only when I think of her because people talk about how well I got through this, how brave I have been, courageous. But it wasn't me. I didn't do this by myself. I did this because of an incredible family, and all the other heroes you've talked about, but my wife has been there from the very beginning. She has kept our family strong. She's helped make those decisions. She said, no matter what we're going through, we will get through it together.
And you talk about marriage. You know, it's in sickness or in health. And we - we've been put to the test. We really have. And we've come out stronger. And we are together every single day. And when I look at her every single moment now I think, what a lucky man I am that I made it home to her.
And that's how I got through this. From the minute I was injured and the attack happened and I was lying on the floor with my leg missing, bleeding everywhere, I thought, I'm going home no matter what. I'm going to see my wife and children. If I have to crawl, I am going to get home.
And that's what I thought every step of the way, right through recovery, right on that train ride out, right with the no pain meds, I'm going home. And if you hold on to that one idea, and you want to get there, I believe we can get through anything. And, for me, that was getting back to my family.
BREAM: And how have you talked to the girls, they're so young, about what happened and what your life is like now?
HALL: It is difficult. And it was one of the things I was most afraid of is trying to introduce them to the realities of what had happened to me and showing it to them. But we also believe in being totally honest with them.
So, it took us a while to tell them that I had lost my leg and my foot. And I was amazed when we finally told them that dad had a robot leg, they thought it was the most exciting thing they'd ever heard. So, I was relaxed then.
But they've seen, you know, my injury up close since then. And my eldest still talks about, you know, bomb and the damage and what could have happened to me. So we're talking to them closely. And these are discussions that I wouldn't have had with them at this age, but they're discussions we've had to have. And we go through it together and we try to be as open as possible.
But I think the key thing is, we're together, and we can get through anything together.
BREAM: I know they've been an enormous support for you in so many different ways.
Speaking of that, you talk about Pierre. You all had been on assignments all over the place. You'd worked together for years. And you say in the book how he was able to find good in these situations. You were in some of the most devastated places in the world and yet he was able to have that attitude about it. For him, for Sasha, what does it mean to you to survive, to continue on to share their story, their legacy?
HALL: Yes, Pierre is one of the most exceptional people that I've ever met. And everyone that ever worked with him, who knew him, would say the same, the kindest, the hardest working, most intelligent person. He taught me so much about the work that I do. And, you know, he died saving my life, as well. I know that.
And so every single day I think of Pierre and Sasha. And I think, if we can't do the best in our own lives now, if we can't make the day every - every day better, then their lives are going to waste as well.
And, look, I would take - change everything to have them back, to - to bring them back somehow. And we must always remember those that we have left behind, those who didn't come home, whether it's the military or whether it's Pierre and Sasha, those are brothers who we'll never get back, but we can honor them. We can honor their memory. We can go out the way they would want us to go out and do more good, do more better things.
And that's how I have to think of it every single day. I think of them. I remember Pierre every single day. I think about him. And I think, go out today, work harder in his name.
BREAM: And I know that part of that has been conversations you now have with people all over the world who reach out to you with their own pain. And we're all going to deal with something in some kind of struggle and you're able to be a comfort to them through your own story.
HALL: Yes. It's a real honor to me. And I didn't -- I never thought that in life I would be someone who could, you know, encourage others or help people get through difficult moments. But since this has happened, hundreds, maybe thousands of people have reached out to me, first wishing me well, but now, more recently, also sharing their own difficult stories with me. Accidents they've had, or deaths in the family, or - or other injuries. And I've realized that if I can speak to them and just tell them how I got through it, encourage them to get through it. If you can talk together about these things, you can really help. And so it's something that I'm most proud of at the moment. Something I want to continue doing.
We can get through difficult things together by speaking to other people, by telling people how hard it can be but how you got through it. And so I'm honored that people reach out to me. And if I can help in any small way, whoever it is, then I want to do it, and will want to do it, you know, for the rest of my life.
BREAM: How much has faith played a role in this journey for you?
HALL: A lot. A lot. You know, I was raised Catholic. I was at school in monastery and every single day I thought about what that meant to me. And along the way, covering wars, I sometimes had moments where I doubted it. You see horrific things. And you always ask yourself, you know, what role does God play in a society where this horror happens?
But I come out of this with my own injuries feeling the opposite. I don't remember the horror that happened to me. I don't remember the evil. I see all the good. I see the incredible people who came together to get me, to build me back together, to help me. And I think that is a sign of God, the pureness of it. You know, it's out there. And if we fight hard for that, if we fight hard for the great and the good, it will win.
And, you know, my daughter came to me and I saw her when I was in the car and I was blacked out and she encouraged me to crawl out of the car, and it saved my life. Yes, that was my daughter, and it was about getting home to my family, but that was also an angel who came to me there. And had I been standing an inch in any direction when the third bomb hit, I would be dead, or I would be blind or have serious brain injury. And somehow I walked out of that alive, with my mind back and doing well, and I know I was saved that day. The book is called "Saved" because I was saved by so many people, and by the heavens too.
BREAM: Well, we are eternally grateful for that and for your story you story too.
Benji (ph), thank you.
HALL: Thank you very much. Thanks.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BREAM: And a reminder that his book, "Saved: A War Reporter's Mission to Make it Home" comes out this Tuesday. It is profound. You do not want to miss it. I can't recommend it highly enough.
Up next, a familiar face chats with me about the importance of compassionate fatherhood.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BREAM: My new podcast "Livin' the Bream" drops this morning. Now, when it comes to the story of Jesus, his mother Mary is the parent who's usually in the spotlight, but what do you think about Joseph? Well, I did a deep dive on him in my new book "The Love Stories of the Bible Speak." Rachel Campos Duffy joins me on my podcast to talk about the example he sets as a father and husband on how to love sacrificially.
That is it for today. Thank you for joining us. I'm Shannon Bream. Have a great week. We'll see you next FOX NEWS SUNDAY.
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