This is a rush transcript of ‘Fox News Sunday’ on January 29nd, 2022. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
SHANNON BREAM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I'm Shannon Bream.
The U.S. makes a major move of support as the war in Ukraine nears one year. And back home, shocking video of a police beating igniting calls for justice.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BREAM (voice-over): Demonstrators take to the streets in multiple cities, upset over disturbing footage of the fatal beating of a Black man by police in Memphis.
The death reopening wounds of similar killings across the country. We will have a live report from Tennessee.
Then, the war on Ukraine intensifies, as more Russian shelling targets major cities, killing civilians. The U.S. now promising Ukraine new equipment it has been pleading for.
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The United States will be sending 31 Abram tanks to Ukraine.
BREAM: But when they will arrive is still a big question.
JOHN KIRBY, NSC SPOKESMAN: It's going to take many months before the tanks get there.
BREAM: We'll sit down with Republican Congressman Michael McCaul, chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, and Democratic Congressman Adam Smith, ranking member of the House Armed Services Committee to discuss U.S. help for Ukraine as the war nears the one-year mark.
Then --
SEN. TOM COTTON (R-AR): The administration is stonewalling Congress on the classified documents.
BREAM: Congressional Republicans and Democrats say they're in the dark on what exactly was in those classified documents discovered in both Biden's and Trump's homes.
Our FOX News Sunday legal panel will break down the fight between the DOJ and Capitol Hill over what was found.
And --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The gavel is yours!
BREAM: Ronna McDaniel elected as RNC chairwoman for her fourth consecutive term. We'll ask our Sunday panel about what it means for the GOP election heading into 2024.
Plus, from Senate staffer to senator. My sit-down with newly sworn in Senator Katie Britt of Alabama.
All, right now, on "FOX News Sunday".
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BREAM (on camera): Hello from FOX News in Washington.
Breaking this weekend, there are new calls for justice, as Americans collectively take in video of an appalling police encounter in Memphis. It shows the brutal beating of 29-year-old Tyre Nichols at the hands of police. Nichols later died of those injuries. The White House, lawmakers, law enforcement leaders across the U.S. all expressing outrage.
And there are new concerns this morning about the drawn out war in Ukraine. The U.S. has agreed to send advanced tanks to the front lines, but it could take up to a year for them to actually get there.
We've got a lot to cover this morning. In a moment, Republican Congressman Michael McCaul and Democratic Congressman Adam Smith join us live to discuss.
But we begin with team coverage this morning. Lucas Tomlinson live at the White House on the decision to ramp up military aid to Ukraine and the timeline about it actually getting there. But first to Charles Watson live in Memphis, where the community is reeling.
And we should note some of the images in his report are very troubling.
Hello, Charles.
CHARLES WATSON, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning, Shannon.
Five former Memphis police officers are set to be arraigned on February 17th after being charged with second degree murder in the death of 29-year- old Tyre Nichols. Brutal body cam video shows officers savagely beating Nichols during that January 7 traffic stop. In a moment, we will show video of that confrontation, and we want to warn viewers it is disturbing.
But first, we are now starting to hear from lawyers representing several of those officers. At least two of the attorneys say their clients will plead not guilty. An attorney who represents former officer Desmond Mills Jr. urged patience, saying they are, quote, confident that the questions of whether Desmond crossed the line that others crossed and whether he committed the crimes charged will be answer with a resounding no.
On the video shared by city of Memphis, you see officers aggressively yank Nichols from his car and tase him before they are later seen relentlessly kicking, punching and pepper spraying Nichols after he runs away from their initial encounter. It would take more than 20 minutes for Nichols to receive medical attention as he sat bloody, less than 200 yards from his mother's home who he had been calling for help. The 29-year-old died three days later.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROWVAUGHN WELLS, MOTHER OF TYRE NICHOLS: For a mother to know that their child was calling them in their need and I wasn't there for him, do you know how I feel right now? Because I wasn't there for my son.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATSON: Nichols' family has called for peaceful demonstrations, and that has largely been the case, as protesters take to the streets here in Memphis and cities around the country, demanding justice for Tyre. The Shelby County district attorney announced charges Thursday and defense attorney Phil Holloway, who was not associated with this case, says what happened is indefensible.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHIL HOLLOWAY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY AND FORMER OFFICER: These guys are going to prison, every one of them. They probably will spend the rest of their lives in prison.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATSON: At least some of the officers were part of the Memphis police department's Scorpion Unit. That task force has been permanently deactivated.
Meantime, a funeral service is set for Nichols on Wednesday with Reverend Al Sharpton expected to deliver the eulogy -- Shannon.
BREAM: Charles Watson, reporting from Memphis, Tennessee -- Charles, thank you very much.
And we did a deep dive into that tape and what happens next. Our legal panel is just minutes away.
Now, though, let's go to Lucas Tomlinson at the White House.
Hello, Lucas.
LUCAS TOMLINSON, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Shannon, President Biden said he offered his condolences directly to the Nichols family and says right now, the image of America on the world stage is at stake.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BIDEN: If I could give you a piece of advice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
BIDEN: It gets really rough. Don't be afraid to ask for help.
TOMLINSON (voice-over): The president also saying in a statement he is outraged and this is a reminder of, quote, the profound fear and trauma, the pain and exhaustion that Black and Brown Americans experience every single day.
Republican Senator Tim Scott, who has championed some police reforms, called the attack vile saying, quote: Let it serve as a call to action for every lawmaker in our nation.
Biden this week also making a move on Ukraine, finally relenting to give them American M1A2 Abrams tanks. As Russia's invasion of Ukraine nears the one year mark, U.S. officials privately say neither side is winning, and British intelligence shows the front lines have not significantly changed in six months.
The hope is U.S. tanks will help Ukraine to break through the miles of trenches dug by Russian forces. But officials say the U.S. tanks won't arrive for many months. Other European allies will send them sooner.
The Kremlin called the tanks a dangerous escalation. President Biden says that's not true.
BIDEN: It is not an offensive threat to Russia.
TOMLINSON: A former member of the Trump administration and a former general saying the losses nearly one year in are staggering.
KEITH KELLOGG, RETIRED ARMY LIEUTENANT GENERAL: The casualties on both sides are enormous. When we were in there, we were told the Ukraine had lost about 100,000 soldiers killed. That's massive. And the Russians have probably lost about 150,000 killed or up to 200,000.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TOMLINSON (on camera): On Capitol Hill, more Democratic lawmakers say they're frustrated with the White House's handling of classified information. Former Vice President Mike Pence said he found some as well in his home in Indiana and tells FOX's Rich Edson he takes full responsibility -- Shannon.
BREAM: Lucas Tomlinson, reporting at the White House, thank you very much.
Joining us now, chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Congressman Michael McCaul.
Congressman, welcome back to "FOX News Sunday". We appreciate it.
REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R-TX): Thanks, Shannon. Thanks for having me.
BREAM: All right. I want to start by this report of a U.S. general, a top general, who is making a comment about a potential war with China in 2025. Get your reaction to this.
NBC News is citing a memo to his officers with this quote. They say: I hope I am wrong, he says to them. My gut tells me we'll fight in 2025.
Now, that's being met with a lot of different reactions and skepticism. This is attributed to the opinion of one man.
What do you make of that and how do you think that's going to be received?
MCCAUL: Well, I hope he's wrong as well. I think he's right though, unfortunately. I mean, China is mounting --
BREAM: Wait, an actual war?
MCCAUL: Well, I think China's looking at uni -- reunification of Taiwan, right? That's how they call it.
There are several ways to do that. The first one is to influence the election that will take place a year from today. President Tsai's party is running for re-election. China is hitting them hard, saying they're a proxy to the United States to get in a war with China.
If they succeed in that effort, like Hong Kong, without a shot fired. But if they don't win in that one, they are going to look at a military invasion, in my judgment.
We have to be prepared for this. And It could happen I think as long as Biden is in office, projecting weakness, as he did with Afghanistan that led to Putin invading Ukraine, that the odds are very high we could see a conflict with China and Taiwan and the Indo Pacific. This goes back to my father's war, World War II.
BREAM: OK. So, let's talk about that because those things are all interconnected. Let's talk about Ukraine and these tanks that we're sending over. You have said there's going to be a winter offensive by Russia. These tanks are needed in the Donbas region.
But this is what the Pentagon said this week about when they may actually get there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SABRINA SINGH, DEPUTY PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: We just don't have these tanks available in excess in our U.S. stocks, which is why it is going to take months to transfer these M1A2 Abrams to Ukraine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: Okay. So there's another estimate that's up to a year for them to get there. It doesn't help Ukraine in the short term. And do you worry about what that telegraphs to bad actors like China about our ability to be ready?
MCCAUL: Well, the better Ukraine does against Russia, the more deterrence against China. It's very clear and important point.
With respect to the tanks, all that was necessary is the United States to give the signal that we're going to do this, to unleash the Leopard tanks that are in Germany and Finland and the Netherlands. But ten other countries that needed permission to put their tanks in.
The Leopards can be put in tomorrow and today actually. The Abram tanks need more logistic, supply, training. So, I wouldn't -- the key was to commit Abrams tanks to unleash the Leopards. The Leopards are going to go in almost immediately.
What's important, Shannon, is that Putin has changed his new general. He took the butcher of Syria out, new general in to do an offensive in the winter/spring. And now, Ukraine needs the resources to do a counteroffensive against Russia.
BREAM: So, this talk about our ability to send them armaments on whatever time schedule raises this question about our military production and capability.
MCCAUL: Right.
BREAM: There's a new study this week. It's sounding an alarm about that. "The Wall Street Journal" quotes it, and it says: the protracted conflict has exposed the strategic peril facing the U.S. as weapons inventories fall to a low level and defense companies aren't equipped to replenish them rapidly.
Now, this goes back to your issue with China as well because the study says we could run out of precision missiles and advanced technology in less than a week if we get into a conflict with Taiwan. That's a shocking assessment.
Do you agree with it and how worried are you about that?
MCCAUL: Very. Our industrial defense base is broken. I signed off on all foreign military weapon sales three years ago. They have yet to go into Taiwan. So, we need that deterrence. But if we don't have the weapons, that's as critical for deterrence.
I would say that also -- you know, a third of the supplemental has gone into our ability to replenish our stockpiles and have modernized our defense, a third of that to make new weapons and a third into Ukraine. But it's important to note that the NATO eastern flank has put the Russian military in the Ukraine as we backfill NATO to modernize their military.
BREAM: Okay. Let's talk about the debt ceiling because the defense spending is a big chunk of that and part of that conversation. We're going to talk with your colleague, a Democrat, Congressman Adam Schiff -- or Smith in just a minute.
And here's what he said about the GOP plan for dealing with the debt ceiling.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ADAM SMITH (D-WA): The real worry, however, is the approach that the radical MAGA extremists in the Republican Conference want to take and McCarthy is willing to go along with, which is to shut down the government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: He talks about not passing appropriations bills or short term funding measure, refusing to raise the debt ceiling, triggering a fiscal crisis. How do you respond?
MCCAUL: I don't think we're going to see a shutdown. I mean, McCarthy, you know, I talked to him. He's going to meet with the president, wants a reasonable debt ceiling to counter, you know, irresponsible government spending.
I agree with him in this sense that I will not sit back and watch our defense being cut at such a dangerous time in our history.
I haven't seen anything like this, Shannon, since World War II, my dad's war. I mean, you have one dictator, largest invasion in Europe since World War II, the other dictator threatening the Pacific that the greatest generation liberated. And now these two and Iran and North Korea are trying to redraw the maps that the Yalta Conference brought to us.
BREAM: We'll talk more with Congressman Smith about that coming up.
But I also want to make sure to touch on the classified documents. So, former Vice President Pence is the newest to come forward and say, hey, we've discovered something.
There was a briefing for senators this week with the director of national intelligence. They came out in a bipartisan way very frustrated and angry about what they weren't able to see.
Here's what GOP Senator Tom Cotton said after the briefing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TOM COTTON (R-AR): Until the administration stops stonewalling Congress, there will be pain as a consequence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: So he said he's going to shut down some Senate business, potential withhold judicial nominees, block them.
Do you think that's the right approach? And what role of oversight should Congress have with these documents?
MCCAUL: I agree with Tom Cotton. I mean, we're a separate branch of government, Article I, the first article in the Constitution. And this administration has not shared these classified documents with the Intelligence Committee. I had access to those as well. I haven't seen anything.
To put all this in the proper context, first of all, I don't understand people taking classified documents home. If I did that, I'd be prosecuted, you know?
But having said that, where's the archivists through all this? Why isn't he or she in the room when the president, vice president are packing their boxes up? How did this happen?
But more importantly, the Biden Center -- $30 million from China at the time that University of Pennsylvania, Biden Center is being stood up. I have a lot of questions.
I sent a letter to Secretary Blinken. He was the manager of that, the government in exile, the shadow government waiting. Did they have access to these documents? What were in the documents? Did they meet with foreign nation adversary actors from China?
We don't know. But that's a very serious allegation that I think the American people deserve to know what happened.
BREAM: Let us know if you get answers.
MCCAUL: I will.
BREAM: We would like to know as well.
Chairman, thank you for joining us again on "FOX News Sunday".
MCCAUL: Thanks, Shannon. Thanks for having me.
BREAM: Appreciate your time.
Joining me now, ranking member of the House Armed Services Committee, Democrat Adam Smith.
Congressman, welcome back to "FOX News Sunday".
REP. ADAM SMITH (D-WA): Thank you.
BREAM: All right. I want to start again where I started with the chairman on this issue of a U.S. general stating that we could be at war or in some type of conflict with China in 2025. You heard the chairman say he thinks that's possible.
SMITH: Well, I mean, I think in the great (ph) -- anything is possible. I'm really worried, though, when anyone starts talking about war with China being inevitable. And I want to be completely clear: it's not only not inevitable, it is highly unlikely.
We have a very dangerous situation in China, but I think generals need to be very cautious about saying, we're going to war. It's inevitable.
Their job is to prepare for a wide range of eventualities. I don't think we should be out there telling the world that we're going to war with China, most importantly because we're not. We have interests. We have to be in a position to deter China.
War is not inevitable. That's a very dangerous situation that we need to be prepared for, but I'm fully confident that we can avoid that conflict if we take the right approach.
BREAM: Yeah. And this administration has been very clear it wants to telegraph that we're not in conflict directly with Russia. They are saying to Kremlin this week that the sending of tanks there by the U.S. signals that we're directly involved.
But I want to start with something that GOP Congressman Andy Biggs tweeted about those tanks going. He says: Sending 31 Abrams tanks to Ukraine brings us closer to a major world war and puts American soldiers in harms way. You can bet we'll be sending American troops to Ukraine to operate these tanks.
How worried are you about that possibility?
SMITH: Well, Congressman Biggs has literally no idea what he's talking about. There will be no U.S. servicemen operating these tanks in Ukraine. That's sort of fearmongering does not help us in terms of meeting our objectives in Ukraine. No U.S. service people are going to be in Ukraine.
And I think President Biden has struck the right balance here. We are going to defend and support Ukraine to the greatest extent possible, to make sure that Ukraine continues to be a sovereign democratic state and that Russia is stopped in their ambition to overtake them.
But we are not going to have the U.S. or NATO get in direct conflict with Russia. And that is going to continue to be the case. We're going to provide these tanks to Ukraine. Ukraine is going to operate them. We are not, repeat, not going to war with Russia.
BREAM: How worried are you about this issue of our military supplies being depleted and our ability to turn this around, whether it's for Ukraine, whether it's about a conflict with China or anywhere else in the world? You heard the study that says we could be out of very critical armaments within a week of a conflict with China. Your thoughts?
SMITH: I completely agree with Chairman McCaul. This is a huge problem.
And we don't have the industrial base. And we don't have the ability to ramp up that industrial base. What industry will tell you is that the reason that they don't have the ability to make as many weapons as we now need is because they don't want to make that major investment without what they refer to as a demand signal, without knowing that we're going to buy them.
And, you know, despite what we heard this morning, predicting future conflict is actually more difficult than it looks. U.S. taxpayers don't want to spend a ton of money on weapons that we don't need.
We need to increase that ability to surge when we need it, which means we desperately need to increase our manufacturing base for key weapons systems.
I think Congressman McCaul is absolutely right. I know it's a huge priority for Chairman Rogers, who is now the chairman of the Armed Services Committee, my partner on that committee. It's a huge priority for our committee to increase that production capacity for all of the reasons that you've laid out.
BREAM: And again, that ties into defense spending, to the debt ceiling. You have said there need to be robust conversation about how we're spending our money and how we handle this moving forward. The White House, the president has said absolutely zero negotiations. They want a clean vote and that's it.
But this is what the president said when he was vice president back in 2011 about people who won't negotiate over the debt ceiling.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, CBS EVENING NEWS/AUGUST 2011)
JOE BIDEN, THEN-VICE PRESIDENT: How can you explain the fact that grown men and women are unwilling to budge up until now and still some of them are still unwilling to budge by taking an absolute position, my way or no way? That's not governing. That's no way to govern. You can't govern that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: He says that's not governing.
So why, essentially play this game now? Is it to turn around in five or six months when we're out of options and you'll blame the GOP?
SMITH: Here's the problem. So, and Hakeem Jeffries, the new minority leader on our side put this quite well.
The Democrats' position right now is we have incurred the debts. We have to raise the debt ceiling to pay those debts. We shouldn't be negotiating over whether or not we should pay our bills.
That's our position. Now, you can argue with that.
You know, personally, I think we need a clearer fiscal plan for the future as well. I would applaud an effort to get there. But what the Republicans have not done, and this is what Congressman Jefferies said so clearly, they haven't put a plan on the table. OK, you don't like the idea that we're just going to raise the debt ceiling. We hear all these vague statements about how we need to cut spending.
What needs to happen right now is if the Republicans don't want to raise the debt ceiling without cutting spending. Obviously, they don't want to raise revenue.
Put a plan on the table. What are you going to cut? Okay? Put a specific plan on the table.
(CROSSTALK)
BREAM: How do you put a plan on the table if you -- if you have an administration saying, we won't even discuss this with you, when years ago they said that's not governing?
SMITH: That's not hard. You put the plan on the table and then you do what you're doing right now. You say, we have a plan. You're refusing to talk about it.
But right now, the Republicans don't have a plan. Their plan, as led by the extremists in their party, is to complain about spending, not raise the debt ceiling, but not actually offer a plan that says, this is what we're going to cut. That's what needs to happen right now.
If the Republicans believe in this, give us an option, and then we can argue about it. But right now, they haven't even put a plan on the table. They just said they don't want to raise the debt ceiling. I guess they'd like us to put the plan on the table.
But again --
BREAM: Well, there has to be a table for everybody to sit at.
SMITH: Sure.
BREAM: And right now, there isn't one.
SMITH: No, but there is. That's not what's true. Democrats have --
BREAM: The White House says no negotiations, what does that mean?
SMITH: No, no, let me -- let me explain it. Democrats have a position. Our position is raise the debt ceiling, to pay the bills.
BREAM: Right, clean.
SMITH: That's our position. We are not going to negotiate with ourselves, okay? That's our position.
If Republicans want to put something on the table and say, this is what we want to cut, well then we can have a conversation. But that's where we're at in the negotiation. Okay?
BREAM: All right.
SMITH: So, we got to see a plan.
BREAM: OK.
SMITH: But we don't have anything to negotiate about.
BREAM: OK. And, quickly I want to ask you because you served on the Intel Committee.
SMITH: Yes.
BREAM: You have spent a life time dealing with classified documents. Can you give us a sense for how you handled classified documents, and do you see a scenario in which these ended up in people's homes and offices?
SMITH: Well, first of all, it's an entirely different situation in the executive branch than legislative branch.
How I handle classified information is, I go to the classified information. We go into a SCIF. I go to the Pentagon. I go to the White House.
I don't have any classified information because in Congress -- well, we have secure settings but they're not in our offices.
In the executive branch, they have classified information in the White House, in a number of different places.
It has been handled poorly by multiple administrations. That much is clear. We need to seriously look at how it is that this information has got out into different places.
I hope we can avoid any partisanship on this because there's hay on everybody's face in this situation. But we should look into how that document has gotten there.
The specific problem that Senator Cotton has is because the Department of Justice is investigating this, they're not sharing that information with Congress. I don't agree with blocking appointments to get this done, but absolutely, the Justice Department needs to share with the legislative branch, co-equal branch of government, they need to show us what they got out of Mar-a-Lago, out of President Biden, out of Vice President Pence. They need to show us the documents so we can be better informed in this process. No question about it.
BREAM: Yeah. There's bipartisan push back on the idea that during this investigation, the DOJ can't share these documents. That's clearly a fight between the two branches.
But, Congressman Smith, thank you for speaking to us and for being with us this morning. We appreciate your time.
SMITH: Thank you, Shannon. Appreciate the chance.
BREAM: Up next, five fired Memphis police officers have been charged with the murder of Tyre Nichols, and new body camera footage, well, it's out there, has been released and it shows the horrific arrest. We're going to bring a panel of legal experts and a former law enforcement officer himself on what happens next now that there are multiple investigations under way.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BREAM: The city of Memphis and the nation coming to grips with video showing five now former police officers severely beating Tyre Nichols. Investigators are still figuring out exactly how this whole thing unfolded, but right now, those five officers have been fired and charged with murder and other charges.
The case has sparked state and federal investigations into police brutality. We want to bring you a deeper discussion now about the legal process that's under way.
Joining me now, former Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General Tom Dupree, George Washington University law professor Jonathan Turley and former D.C. Police Detective Ted Williams, who is an attorney as well.
Thank you all for being here with us.
JONATHAN TURLEY, FOX NEWS LEGAL ANALYST: Thanks.
BREAM: I want to start with this. "The Washington Post" had an opinion piece yesterday that said getting the police under civilian control and not killing people may require drastically reducing the number of officers and their powers while creating entirely new public safety agencies led by non- cops to replace existing police departments.
Ted, you understand all different sides of this. What's your reaction?
TED WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I'm somewhat opposed to what "The Washington Post" is wanting to put in place. I believe that law enforcement officers, quite naturally, should do the right and proper thing. But I think they should be under the control of law enforcement.
And when you look at what happened in Memphis, Tennessee, it is the exception and not the norm. You have a lot of good men and women throughout this country who serve in law enforcement and they go out there every day and they protect the citizens and their community. So, I'm somewhat opposed to that, to be honest with you, Shannon.
BREAM: OK. So, we have state investigation. We have federal investigation.
And, Jonathan, you wrote about, the federal investigation, at least the civil rights part of it, may be premature at this point. Explain.
TURLEY: Well, I think it is premature. This is not uncommon to see officers lose control, unfortunately, in a physical confrontation. This -- the most likely explanation is that this is a lack of training and loss of control.
But the administration decided they wanted to launch civil rights investigation. We saw the same thing happen in Trayvon Martin's death. And I raised the same questions there. When you create a civil rights investigation, it can complicate things for people on the scene. There's a long rule that you wait for the state investigation prosecution to go to be finished then you launch your federal side.
In Trayvon Martin, in 2015, they just quietly ended that investigation. Now, by saving it's a civil rights investigation, there's positive aspect. You amplify that you are taking racist -- these concerns of racism seriously. It can also amplify that you believe that this was caused by racism. You sort of fulfill that narrative.
It's not clear that that's the case here. It looks like a bunch of officers who lost control, who had no supervision and it seems like precious little training.
BREAM: "The New York Times" put it this way. Bottom line, definition of excessive force. That's what this was. They talk to policing experts. They say, even when Mr. Nichols was lying on the ground, none of the officers attempted to help them which is violation of their duty to render aid.
And, Tom, I think that was one of the -- the whole series of tapes is horrific, but to watch him there being propped up on a car after he's been beaten, waiting for medical care, not getting it, we're told there could be more charges potentially for these officers and other people who were involved in that response.
THOMAS DUPREE, FORMER PRINCIPAL DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Shannon, I think that's right.
Look, what we saw unfold on that video was a total loss of humanity. It is so difficult to watch those - those minutes unfold on that video. And I think that's right in that there are so many people who were involved in this whole situation, obviously the initial officers who were involved in - in - in pulling over Mr. Nichols, but also people who responded. And I think that as the city of Memphis -- and so far I have to say I've been impressed with the way that they've handled this. They've moved quick. They've moved decisively. And I think that as this unfolds, I think we are going to see maybe a broader net being cast as the city and local law enforcement really looks at everyone who played a role in this horrible scenario. And were there different things people could have done? Could other responders have done more?
So, this is, I think, an important turning point, the fact that these charges have been brought against the officers, but I would be surprised if ultimately it doesn't cast a broader net and include other people involved in this situation.
BREAM: And because we have your DOT -- DOJ expertise, I want to ask you a question on classified documents as well.
There are two special counsel investigations going on, former President Trump, current President Biden. At the end of these investigations by special counsel, how much deference does the attorney general give to those recommendations? Does he have autonomy with regard to any prosecutorial recommendations? How does that work?
DUPREE: Yes, good question. At the end of the day it is going to be the attorney general's calls. Each of the special counsels is presumably going to present some sort of recommendation to the attorney general. Maybe less certain with regard to the investigation into Biden because, as we know, it's Justice Department policy not into indict a sitting president. But, nonetheless, it's ultimately going to be Merrick Garland's decision as to how he wants to proceed. He's not required to accept the recommendations of the special counsel, but if he disagrees or he does something different, that will certainly open him up to, I think, a lot of public second guessing and questioning as to, wait a minute, you appointed these special counsels precisely because you trusted their judgment, you trusted them to get to the bottom of this, and yet you're defying their recommendation.
So, again, he can reject their recommendation, but I think it comes with a lot of political risk.
BREAM: Yes, political risk.
OK, let's talk about politics in another vein.
There's this Georgia grand jury, a special grand jury, that essentially looked into allegations that former President Trump, or allies of his, tried to attempt to influence the election results as they came out down there. Now, this report is done. The judge held a hearing this week to talk about whether or not they're actually going to get to release it. And there were arguments by the Fulton County district attorney down there, Fani Willis, this is one of the reports on it, it's - that she said during the hearing, for future defendants to be treated fairly, it's not appropriate at this time to have this report released. Decisions are imminent.
Ted, that sounds like people could potentially be charged now in connection with this.
TED WILLIAMS, FORMER DNC POLICE DETECTIVE AND FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: No. Shannon, I believe that Fani Willis, in Fulton County, D.A., I think that there are going to be charges that are going to be brought. I think what we need to look at, and I have always said probably a precursor to these charges will be if, in fact, all of a sudden you see the National Guard out there and you see more law enforcement officers because I think that Fani Willis has it in her mind that charges are imminent. She's used that over and over, the word imminent. So, I do believe that charges are going to be coming down.
And there is a great possibility, if I was Donald Trump, I would not sleep at night because I would certainly be very, very concerned as to whether I was going to be charged in the state of Georgia. I've always believed that if there were going to be charges brought first, that it was not going to be on the federal level with Garland, that it would, in fact - in fact be in Georgia. So, I anticipate something happening very soon.
BREAM: What do you think, Jonathan?
TURLEY: Yes, I'm not too sure that this would be a sleep deprivation moment in that this still is a relatively weak case if it is based largely on that phone call where - where former President Trump says, look, all I need is for you to find this number of - of votes. You can view that in very different ways. From Trump's perspective he can say, look, I was trying to say that there doesn't take many votes for the election to be overturned, not go make up those votes. Now, reasonable people can disagree with that, but that's the point of reasonable doubt.
The interesting thing here is that with the classified document prosecutions losing a bit of steam, as you have more people being accused of this, and we certainly have a diminishing jury pool in Washington, D.C., many people are putting all their money on Georgia. They should be careful what they ask for because you clearly have someone who wants to indict the former president. I understand that. But this could collapse in court. And it could collapse before the 2024 election. You could end up validating Donald Trump.
So, there's risks on both sides.
BREAM: We do stand by to see if that report is released, if the charges are indeed imminent.
Gentlemen, thank you all for your time today. Appreciate it.
All right, up next, this week RNC Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel won another term despite complaints over her party under performing in midterms, and former President Trump takes aim within his own party. We're going to sit down with our Sunday panel next on McDaniel's plan to try to unify the GOP in her fourth (ph).
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARMEET DHILLON, FORMER RNC CHAIR CANDIDATE: I heard somebody say to a member earlier -- a member say to a commentator earlier today, I don't give a damn what those voters or those small donors think because they're not voting here today. Believe me, I do give a damn, and so do the people who supported me this that room.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: That's Harmeet Dhillon blasting Republican Party insiders she says are ignoring the rank-and-file voters they need to win elections.
Time now for our Sunday group.
"USA Today" Washington bureau chief Susan Page, former Bush White House adviser Karl Rove, Fox News senior political analyst Juan Williams, and the executive chairman of Strive Asset Management, Vivek Ramaswamy.
Welcome to all of you.
OK, this is how the AP put it after that decisive vote there on the RNC, Republicans confront bitter divide. It says, frustrated Republicans from state capitals to Capitol Hill to the luxury southern California hill, where RNC members gathered this week, are at odds over how to reverse six years of election disappointments.
Karl.
KARL ROVE, FORMER BUSH WHITE HOUSE ADVISER AND FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Nominate a candidate who can win the presidency and get better candidates for the U.S. Senate and U.S. House and governorships.
BREAM: Done. The panel's over.
ROVE: Done.
BREAM: Karl - Karl has solved everything.
ROVE: You just need to (ph) - look, this is not an - it's an important question but there's no easy answer. And the Republican Party has to confront the fact that it has to re-examine how it conducts campaigns and how it recruits candidates and it has to examine where its strengths and weaknesses are and act accordingly. Not an easy task and not something that falls on the shoulders of one individual. There are lots of people in the leadership of the party at the national level, state level and local level who need to step up their game.
BREAM: In the meantime, former President Trump, who's the on officially announced candidate for `24, has been out in New Hampshire and South Carolina, two critical states, yesterday. Here's a little bit of what he said about now officially getting the campaign going.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: They said, he's not doing rallies. He's not campaigning. Maybe he's lost that step. We didn't -- I'm more angry now and I'm more committed now than I ever was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: Juan, I don't think Karl's probably very happy about that, but former President Trump says he's in it to win it.
JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, well, let me just say, Karl is 100 percent right about the box that the Republicans find themselves in when you see that selection of a new chair, or re-election of the incumbent, because the party is divided between the MAGA Trump base and more moderate or establishment Republicans. And they've got - you know, Ronna McDaniel is going to have to square that circle somehow to produce a candidate that can win. And I don't know if Trump is a good bet to be that candidate.
Now, you see him in New Hampshire, South Carolina. Last time he got about 30 percent of the vote in South Carolina, Shannon, but it got him 100 percent of the delegates. And I think this time we're seeing him now pursue a very clear strategy about, where do I go to get those delegates? It's a little different. Not as much of the rallies, to his point, as we see him now engaging with Republican Party delegates.
BREAM: Yes, he says the bigger rallies are coming. And he also, and his team will point out, that in the polling he is ahead of all of the other GOP candidates. Nobody's officially announced yet.
WILLIAMS: Right.
BREAM: He seemed to take a swipe at one of them. He said there were Republican governors that didn't close their states. Florida was closed for a long period of time. They're trying to rewrite history.
Susan, it sounds like a very specific swipe at a specific person.
SUSAN PAGE, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, "USA TODAY": Yes, so who -- who was more afraid of Covid? That does not strike me as a debate that is really going to resonate with a lot of Republican voters looking ahead to the next presidential debate.
You know, we should note that Ronna McDaniel (ph) got 111 votes. You know, it's a very solid victory in a secret ballot election. So that is notable.
But it's also notable that you had more than 50 other members of the RNC, a body that has been redefined by Donald Trump, not backing the candidate who is perceived as being his choice. So, clearly, you've got Trump supporters who maybe are quite willing to look at other contenders for the presidency.
BREAM: What do you think it says that this was a bit more of a race than I think that the chairwoman had anticipated there would be?
VIVEK RAMASWAMY, EXECUTIVE CHAIRMAN OF STRIVE ASSET MANAGEMENT: Well, look. I just think the Republican Party is in a complicated place where we've obsessed over the question of the who. Is it Ronna McDaniel? Is it somebody else? Is it Kevin McCarthy? Is it somebody else? Is it Donald Trump? Is it somebody else? Without actually asking the question of the what. What agenda do we actually stand for? And the why. Why do we even stand for that agenda?
And I just, optimistically, see a historic opportunity for the GOP right now to answer the question of, what are the shared American values that bind us together? I mean we lack American shared national identity right now. That's an opportunity for the GOP. I worry that we squander it by obsessing over these biographical questions instead of defining the what. And once we do that, the question of the who falls out of that, whether it's the president, whether it's on the school board, whether it's the chair of the RNC. And that's the missing work that the conservative movement needs to do is graduate from the person to the agenda. And if we do that, I think the next cycle is going to be very successful.
BREAM: Well, one of the agenda items they have is this idea of freedom of choice with education. Iowa, this week, signed a new legislation very quickly, passed and signed by the governor there. "The Federalist" says this, now two states -- because they're referring to Arizona as well -- have universal school choice and yours could be next. This Iowa education savings account, or ESA program, will provide parents with approximately $7,600 annually to allocate toward approved educational avenues.
Vivek, is that one of those places that Republicans can start these conversations?
RAMASWAMY: Absolutely. I mean this is about the next generation of Americans. You care about a national identity? That's that next generation. And there's actually good studies showing that for all of the known benefits of school choice, one of them is surprising. You actually get greater civic pride in cases where -- in states where students are actually able to opt out of their public schools. The number one opponent, by the way, are, of course, teachers' unions. That then leads to the next frontier of this debate. They say that public schools can't keep up. Well, you know what, public schools can compete if we're able to take on those teachers unions. And I hope states like Arizona and Iowa then go to the next step of actually saying that these public employee, teachers of public schools, should not actually be able to unionize in the way they have. So, I hope this moves forward.
BREAM: Well - well -
WILLIAMS: So - see, that's the argument because then people say you're trying to drain money from public schools. I'm a big public school choice supporter myself. But, you know, when you think about it, there's a drain in confidence in public schools in this country, particularly -- I think it's just like 10 percent of Republicans have confidence in public schools but only about 50 percent of Democrats have confidence in public schools. So, there's a need for innovation in education. We can all agree. And lots of arguments about closures regarding the pandemic. But in Arizona, for example --
BREAM: Where the governor, by the way, the new governor wants to undo this, or at least limit it.
WILLIAMS: Yes. But I think it's less about education innovation in a place like Arizona than it is about getting public moneys to go into parochial schools -- evangelicals are big backers of this -- and into private schools.
Right now it's like 80 percent of the people who have applied for this money in Arizona are people who don't have children in public schools. So, you know, I think for a lot of people it's draining money from the biggest source of education for American children, public schools. They think that's dangerous.
BREAM: Karl.
ROVE: Well, the public schools need competition. Our public schools -- we're in the District of Columbia. The capital of the United States of America. And half the kids who enter school in D.C. do not graduate from high school. They're public schools. And we have -- that's an embarrassment for our country. And what they're doing in Arizona, I don't - I don't care what the delivery system is. I'm a product of public schools but they were good public schools. But if they're failing our kids, we've got to rescue our kids and give them options. And public school choice is the way to get that done.
BREAM: All right, we've got to leave it there.
Panel, thank you very much. We'll see you next week.
Up next, she's one of the youngest women ever elected senator and she's still, by the way, getting mistaken for a staffer on Capitol Hill. She has to remind them who she is. My sit down with now Senator Katie Britt is up next.
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BREAM: Newly sworn in Alabama Senator Katie Britt is the second youngest woman to ever serve in the chamber. But don't expect a newbie. Britt was a long time Senate staffer, having served as chief of staff to the man she's now replacing.
I sat down with Senator Britt on her goals, what it's like to make the move and her new role navigating another tricky divide, the Alabama/Auburn rivalry.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BREAM: You've been a staffer on The Hill.
SEN. KATIE BRITT (R-AL): Yes.
BREAM: So, you know Washington. You know these buildings. But what is the difference of walking in with your badge, chief of staff, now you're the senator?
BRITT: To have been here as an intern and then now to come back and my name be on the door, the gravity of that is - is pretty remarkable. You know, to have had the opportunity to have learned and to have been here, to have met people, to have built relationship, to have seen things work, and in many times not. And now to have a shot to be a part of that, a part of making our nation better and stronger, it's truly an honor of a lifetime.
BREAM: You're replacing somebody who was here for decades. You worked for him. He was very well-established. What's that experience like?
BRITT: You know, I think we're seeing it across the nation, that people are ready for new blood. And so coming in here, but realizing the reality, that there aren't too many of us that are from my generation that are here, and the responsibility that that carries, because there are parents and hardworking Americans that are our age all across the nation that want a voice.
BREAM: In the midst of this you have school age children.
BRITT: Yes.
BREAM: How do you manage home and family? And do you think that's a fair question for - for female lawmakers?
BRITT: Right.
BREAM: Should we be asking that of everybody who's got school aged kids?
BRITT: I do think that we do tend to ask that more of female lawmakers than we do men. But, you know, one of the things that we look at is, I think about the sacrifice of so many people across our nation. And so this is a sacrifice, obviously, for our family, to be away, but it pales in comparison to that of our service men and women who are gone oversea, many times for months on end. You know, some of them never actually having the opportunity to return home.
You think about people who are pulling 12-hour shifts or people who are working two jobs to make ends meet for their children and be able to provide. So, what it puts in perspective is that everybody across this country has a story. And everybody is giving it their all to make things work.
And one of the things we've committed to is Facetiming. We actually had dinner via Facetime this week. My daughter and I are doing a daily devotion together. So, doing that during Facetime, being able to talk about that, talk about her day, you know, look at scripture we're reading and - and be able to, you know, be that hands-on parent, even though some of it is having to be done virtually.
BREAM: What would you say to other people from your generation who look at something like this and think, I couldn't be a senator -
BRITT: Oh, yes, you can.
BREAM: Or this is overwhelming, or how would I tackle this? What would you say to them about whatever their issues are or causes they want to champion, about getting involved in this process?
BRITT: Yes. Well, I would say we need you. So, whether it's school boards or the United States Senate, you see people from my generation saying, it's time. It's time for us to do our part. It's time for us to contribute. It's time for us to be a part of the solution. And so I would say, number one, we need you. And, number two, be unafraid to fail.
When I got in this race, people said there was no way that we could make this happen. And if you looked at the numbers, you know, you would think they - they couldn't be wrong on that. But hard work, passion, energy makes a difference. And, you know, God's plan is greater than anything that we have in front of us.
BREAM: Do you get mistaken still for a staffer?
BRITT: Over the course of the last few week, almost every time actually, I have gotten stopped and said, ma'am, may I see your badge? Oh, and then people will say, Senator. And I kid you not, Shannon, I look around, I'm like who - who are they - oh -
BREAM: It's you now.
BRITT: Oh, they're talking -- they're talking about me.
BREAM: So, I've got a niece at Alabama.
BRITT: Nice.
BREAM: And I know how divided the state is when it comes to college football.
BRITT: Yes. Absolutely.
BREAM: So, was that a tougher chasm to navigate or is the RND (ph) a tougher one to navigate?
BRITT: Well, the very first week that I was on the campaign, I had somebody walk up to me and say, I am so glad that you're running. You know, we are finally going to have both political parties in the state of Alabama represented. We'll have a former Auburn football coach and the wife of an Alabama football player.
And I, as the student body president of Alabama, ended up having to sing the Auburn fight song at an Alabama/Auburn basketball game because we lost.
BREAM: I was going to say, did you lose a bet?
BRITT: We lost a bet. And my dad called me and he said, you better sing every single word of that right. You - and that was not the tradition. Typically, they would make up new words. But learned every word of it, sang every word of it. And, ironically, the coach, who was there, who beat us, was Coach Tuberville.
BREAM: Oh, man.
BRITT: So there is a photo of me singing every word of that Auburn fight song with Coach Tuberville and the Auburn team behind me. So, to say life goes full circle, it certainly does.
BREAM: Now everyone's represented in Alabama.
BRITT: That's right. That's right. Absolutely.
BREAM: Bottom line, what do you want to leave as a legacy here? You're just getting started, but what is your long term hope or thought for serving here?
BRITT: I think it is critically important, at this time in our history, that we have people that are willing to have tough conversations, so that they can make tough decisions, so that we can face our challenges head on. And so I know in doing that you have to build relationships because nothing is done by one single person or alone. And so building those based on trust and respect is critically important.
So, I hope that people will see me as one of those people that, to our conversation earlier, is working each and every day to move the ball down the field so that the people of the nation and the state will be better as a result of my service.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BREAM: Got to be careful with those football bets.
Up next, a final word.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BREAM: And a quick note. My brand-new edition of my podcast "Living the Bream" is available for download right now. Guest this week is Trey Gowdy. We talk about how to make those really tough decisions in your life. He's got great advice.
And you can hear all the interviews from today's program on the FOX NEWS SUNDAY podcast. You can download and subscribe by heading to foxnewspodcast.com or wherever you like to get your podcasts.
That is it for us today. Thank you for joining us. I'm Shannon Bream. Have a great week and we'll see you right back here for next FOX NEWS SUNDAY.
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